Moly Coated Bullets

Всем Добрый День! Сегодня зашел Мидвей и хотел заказать 500 Sierra MatchKing Bullets 30 Caliber (308 Diameter) 168 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail, однако в наличии были только Moly Coated. Я не знаю ничего об этих пулях - помогите информаией. Есть ли отличия в баллистике и как эти пули могут повлиять на состояние ствола(лучше/хуже)?

Приветствую, Виктор

Покрытие бисульфитом молибдена
Вроде уменьшает трение
Если ранее ствол стрелял обычными медными, то не стоит мешать с моли.
Или то, или другое. Но ни в коем случае не попеременно.
Иначе получится пирог из слоев медь-моли
Медь удаляется растворителями, но моли уже не берут
Баллистика пуль должна быть такой же как медные

Спасибо Сергей!
Так как моя винтовка уже первую сотню заканчивает - то от моли прийдется отказаться (нафталином ее ;-). Буду брать обычную Сиерру. Сергей, спасибо за помощь!!!
Пы.Сы. (Тихо в сторону - а может вычистить ее в ноль да поставить под моль). Говорят после моли с чисткой не особенно заморачиваться можно... ;-)

Ага! Нашел ответы:
Да, вероятно не стоит заморачиваться...
Moly Questions & Answers
Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly Ultra-Coat)
Molybdenum disulfide or "Moly", as it is commonly called, is a lubricant used in extreme pressure conditions due to its high degree of lubricity and high melting point. Moly has been found to reduce bore fouling when applied to bullet surfaces. It will decrease bore cleaning effort and time. Published reports have shown an increase in Ballistic Coefficient, longer barrel life, and an increase in accuracy.
Moly coated bullets will reduce pressure and velocity. Loads must be worked up slowly to attain previous velocities, therefore the maximum pressure of the cartridge must not be exceeded under any circumstances.

NOTE: This does NOT mean powder can be added indiscriminately.
NOTE: Loading data for Moly Coated Bullets and Non-Moly Coated Bullets is not interchangeable.
Below are questions concerning Moly coating that MidwayUSA customers have been asking with technical advice for each:

Do I need steel shot?
Steel shot is not needed in the MidwayUSA process.
Steel shot is used in other processes as a burnishing aid to imbed the Moly into the bullet surface.
By using the MidwayUSA 1292 Tumbler, bullet on bullet impact imbeds Moly into the bullet surface without the use of steel shot.
Do I need carnauba wax?
Carnauba wax is not needed.
Carnauba wax is used in other processes so the Moly would not rub off the bullets.
Some shooters using carnauba wax have found that the wax accumulates in the bore and crystallizes.
How many bullets can I coat?
A. An 8 oz container will coat approximately 970 lbs of jacketed bullets or 485 lbs of cast lead bullets.
B. The maximum load for a MidwayUSA 1292 Tumbler is 10 lbs.
Do cast lead bullets still need to be lubed?
Yes. Even though cast lead bullets have been Moly-coated they still must be lubed after Moly coating.
If Midway pre-sized and lubed cast bullets are being Moly-coated freeze the bullets for two hours then tumble with Moly for 20 minutes.
Why do I need different bowls for coating jacketed and cast lead bullets?
When coating cast lead bullets or bullets with exposed lead (i.e. soft points, spitzers) a layer of lead is deposited on the surface of the bowl. This layer of lead can then be transferred to a bullet's copper jacket or plating causing the Moly not to adhere.
Bowls used for coating bullets with exposed lead (i.e. soft points, spitzers) should be cleaned after each use.
Bowls used for coating cast lead bullets should be cleaned after coating 50 lbs of bullets.
Bowls used for bullets without exposed lead (i.e. FMJ, HPBT) should be cleaned after coating 50 lbs of bullets.
How do I clean the bowl?
Fill the bowl just above the Moly stain line with corn cob or walnut media.
Pour 3-4 tablespoons of bore cleaner into the media.
Tumble the media/bore cleaner mixture for 30 minutes or until bowl is clean.
Wipe the bowl out with a clean cloth.
Degrease the bowl with liquid dish washing detergent and warm water.
Some Moly will remain embedded in the plastic bowl; which is perfectly fine. This cleaning process will remove any lead deposited in the bowl.
How pure is MidwayUSA Moly?
MidwayUSA Moly is 98.5% pure.
Impurities are mostly residual carbon created during production.
C. MidwayUSA Moly does not contain graphite. Graphite is hygroscopic and promotes rust.
What is the particle size of MidwayUSA Moly?
MidwayUSA Moly is considered to be technical grade. Particle size ranges from 1 to 100 microns.
The Fisher rating, or average particle size, is 3 to 4 microns.
How does Moly coating increase velocity?
Moly coating actually decreases pressure and muzzle velocity because of reduced friction between the bullet and bore.
Moly coating will increase terminal velocity by increasing the ballistic coefficient of the bullet. Moly has higher lubricity than the jacket material. This lubricity causes a reduced coefficient of friction in the air. The reduced drag results in a higher ballistic coefficient.
How do I obtain loading data for moly coated bullets?
Load data for Moly-coated bullets is NOT interchangeable with that of non-coated bullets.
MidwayUSA does not carry load data for Moly coated bullets.
Moly coated bullets will reduce pressure and velocity. Loads must be worked up slowly to attain previous velocities.
The maximum pressure of the cartridge must not be exceeded under any circumstances.
I'm shooting Moly-coated bullets and my groups are much larger than they were with non-coated bullets. What's the problem?
It will take approximately 15-30 "fouling" shots with Moly-coated bullets to deposit a thin coat of Moly to the bore. The first coated bullet fired will deposit a small amount of Moly in the bore close to the throat. The next bullet will deposit more Moly where the first left off. Moly deposition will continue towards the muzzle until the entire length of the bore is coated. These fouling shots will provide a sporadic group because of the varying amount of friction in the bore. After the fouling procedure rounds should "settle in" and groups will tighten up.
Moly-coated bullets will reduce pressure and velocity. Loads need to be worked up slowly to attain original velocities. Dramatically reduced velocities generally deliver poor accuracy results.
It is suggested that loads be chronographed when working up a new load. It will be much easier attaining desirable results with velocity data from your firearm. This is true for all load testing, not just Moly loads.
Some non-Moly coated bullet/powder combinations may shoot better than a Moly-coated bullet/powder combination in a specific firearm.
How do I clean my firearm without removing the Moly?
Running a dry patch through the bore should remove any fouling; most of which will be carbon fouling.
If cleaning with a bore solvent is desired the bore will need to be recoated with Moly. This is accomplished by firing 15-30 fouling shots with Moly-coated bullets.

Ага! Нашел ответы:

А чем моли чистится??? И для чего придумано моли (малое трение, выше скорость), что ещё. Чем они хуже медных???

А чем моли чистится???

На сколько мне известно моли чистится только пастой.

Пастой ДжиБи синей влет счищается, и после чистки в ноль можно на медь переходить. Моль вноль вычищать не надо и омеднения нет, но...... Есть свои плюсы и минусы.

Во дела 😊, а я пастой всегда, побыринькому... теперь что - моль добавлять??? 😀 😀 😀

С англицким не дружу совсем к своему стыду, но правильно ли я понял ч\з эл. переводчика, что Моли имеют меньшую силу трения, но в то же время и более мягкие? Или это те же пули в медной оболочке с дополнительной обработкой? Правда не понял 😊

есть ли практические плюсы от моли, а то сдается, что это буржуинкий развод...

Mik71
есть ли практические плюсы от моли, а то сдается, что это буржуинкий развод...

Это зависит от того, какая у меня практика. Если я стреляю из СКСа на дистанцию 25 метров по бегущей грудной мишени, то точно буржуинский развод.

Дайте ссылочку, чем эту моли отдирать от ствола.

quote:
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Вопрос в том, влияет ли моль на холодный выстрел в винтовке, которая до этого его не имела?
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Однозначно да. Особенно влияет не отрыв холодного выстрела, он не особо больше чем на медных пулях, а то что кучность приходит в норму больше чем через 1-2 выстрела, как на медных. Иногда в самом деле требуется 5-10 выстрелов для достижения пиковой кучности. Но связано это только с правильной тактикой чистки, а именно при стрельбе молью очень критичен так называемый КОНТРОЛЬ ЗАГРЯЗНЕНИЯ. С молью НЕЛЬЗЯ чистить загрязнение БОЛЬШЕ ЧЕМ ТРЕБУЕТСЯ. Также под моль необходим подбор химикатов. Но это все было жевано-пережевано в статьях и на Снайпинге.

quote:
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интересует опыт стрельбы "на точность" использующих моль в плане обнуления. Логичным вижу стрелять 5-10 раз и потом обнуляться.
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В этом есть смысл если контроль загрязнения не обеспечен и чистка каждый раз делается в ноль. Но тогда при стрельбе на результат так же придется делать 5-10 прогревочных выстрелов.

Для себя давно решил применять моль только в зимних условиях (так всегда и делал), чтоб пореже чистить. В летних всегда пользовал медные. С ними проще оценить качество столов.

otvinta823
Для себя давно решил применять моль только в зимних условиях (так всегда и делал), чтоб пореже чистить. В летних всегда пользовал медные. С ними проще оценить качество столов.

Однозначно да.

5 выстрелов - 100м

паста зимой, а летом химия - так как она любит плюсовую температуру...

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С уважением, ded68

как эти пули могут повлиять на состояние ствола

01 #

Moly Coating - Norma Report
by Christer Larsson, Norma Precision AB

Latley there has been a lot of discussions about moly. After Kevin Thomas article in the January (I will find the right year -GAS-) issue of Precision Shooting, we have received quite a few e-mails. Since we have been coating bullets for a few years we would like to share our experience. I guess this article will solve a few questions but probably raise a few too.

Briefly we have found that molycoated bullets do:

* decrease pressure by 3-5% depending on cartridge, bullet and powder
* decrease velocity with 0.5 - 1.5% - reduce metal fouling
* increase accuracy under certain circumstances
* very likely increase barrel life

During testing we have also observed that first shot out of a cleaned barrel is within the following group (at 300 meters).

Moly is a superb friction reducer and it's bearing capacity is beyond the yield point of known metals. When a molycoated bullet enters the throat and travels down the barrel it has less friction than a ordinary bullet. So it is not surprising to see a lower pressure. We have not done any huge tests with many calibers but these 3% -5% has been there every time.

If pressure is reduced velocity will also be lower with the same charge. The interesting thing is that velocity is not reduced as much as pressure. Thus, by increasing the charge you can usually get 1% - 2% higher velocity with moly bullets.

Metal fouling is hard to measure accurately. We have observed through bore scopes and compared need of cleaning. It seems as coated bullets gives a certain degree of fouling but it more or less stays there. Our subjective estimation would be 30% - 40% less metal fouling and much slower buildup. This depends on cartridge, pressure, powder and bullet. I'm pretty sure we will see improvement in this area on the powder side quite soon.

During our initial testing of moly we fired some 140 gr. 6.5mm bullets for accuracy. These bullets look very much like Sierra's # 1740. We could see no improvement in accuracy at all. Testing continued with 6 PPC and Sierra 107 gr. MK. About 60 5-shot groups were fired indoors at 100 m with three different loads. Every load showed smaller groups on the average (6% - 11%) and less standard deviation with moly. That was just a hint, no significant improvement (usually significance on 95% level is accepted as true). We went back and retested the 6.5mm bullets with two different powders. Same result as first time - nothing happened. Then we coated our 130 gr. VLD (Bill Davis design) bullet and fired a substantial number. Significant improvement on 95% level!

Later we were going to load this 130 gr. VLD bullet with MRP. Quality of the bullets was okay from the continuous testing during production but the results were quite bad for the loaded cartridge. Every single item in the cartridge was changed one at a time. When two different cases were tested things happened with one of them. That batch of cases was old and had thick necks. Suddenly accuracy was back. Also variation in pressure, barrel time and velocity was approximately cut in half. Neck tension or extraction force as we call it, was the answer. We went back to the present cases and used a slightly faster powder and it worked fine. The 140 gr. was tested once again but no response in accuracy.

So, be careful when using slow powders and moly coated bullets - it is very important the powder charge starts to burn the same way each time. One thing that differ from our testing and some others is that we always use new cases because that is the way loaded ammo is produced (jealous eh?). Sized cases would not be the same. Typically moly reduces the extraction force by 50%.

One explanation for the increased accuracy could be that moly helps the bullet align in the bore. Thus, bullets with long bearing surfaces would not gain much from that help. Pistol bullets in 9 mm have been coated with no effect on accuracy. Probably more factors are involved that we don't know of at this time.

When it comes to increased barrel life statistics start to get a pain in b- - t. It is too much a work with too many variables to do enough tests. However, we took a new Sauer 6.5 x 55 barrel and fired it 10,000 rounds with our standard load - 130 gr. at 2700 fps. It was examined with a borescope every 1,000 rounds and measured with gauges. After 5,000 it looked very nice but after that it started to show pressure cracks. Wear in bore dimensions was more or less normal. At 10,000 rounds it was set up at 300 m outdoors in a machine rest and 10 x 10 rounds were fired. It might have been a good batch for this barrel as average group size was 71 mm center to center or less than one MOA. That was good enough for us not to worry about barrel life.

A shortcut to prove less barrel wear was to find out whether temperature of the barrel was lower with moly bullets. A heat sensitive digital camera was set up and we fired conventional bullets and moly coated bullets at the same muzzle velocity from a conventional target rifle. Of course the barrel was fired with uncoated bullets first and then cleaned. First thing was then to shoot some moly bullets to break in the barrel. It was also allowed to cool down to same temperature each time. Shooting pace was controlled etc. There was no difference in temperature at all. If it had been, it would more or less has proven less wear. David Tubb told me he had heard pistol shooters could feel the difference from moly bullets so there might be things out there!

Some of our people who meet a lot of target shooters usually bring a borescope with a monitor to the major competitions. They look through hundreds of barrels each time. Their strong belief is that moly helps to prolong the accurate life of the barrels.

A few tests were made to find out if the wax was necessary and if thickness had any influence. This was only tested with respect to pressure and velocity, no accuracy testing. Moly alone seem to give 60% - 65% of full effect. Wax only didn't matter much. Moly together with wax made a better job. To have some excess wax didn't hurt but too little made the reduction in pressure / velocity less. Only 6.5 x 55 was tested.

Yesterday we compared our normal wax coating with a thinner and much nicer looking coat. There was an increase in velocity with 0.19% and in pressure with 1.23% when using less wax. No drop in accuracy was noticed.

Our powder supplier - Bofors - ran a few tests with both moly and wax to find out if there were any negative effects on the powder. Moly destroyed the stability of the powder but only when concentration was a few hundred times higher than what normally occurs. Carnuba wax was neutral.

Better trajectory with moly?

We have done exactly the same tests as Kevin and usually we have seen a small decrease in BC. Probably due to our relatively thick wax coating. The first test we made showed an increase in BC of app. 3% but it was due to a mix of bullet batches. Also Randolph Constantine mentioned in the August 1998 issue of Precision Shooting that we found better BC using a doppler radar. I'm sorry but that was a misunderstanding. What we found was that BC was more or less the same from 200 m out to 600 m with conventional bullets. We didn't know about moly at that time. Some good shooters report on higher impact with moly but I guess that must come from shifted barrel vibrations or different barrel time. I'll be back on that later as we will test it in a 6.5-284 when we have the brass - May.

A good friend won a 500 box of our 6.5x55 Diamond Line ammo. It did not shoot very well so he used it for training. Suddenly, after 300 rounds the ammo shot better than anything he has ever used. That was the worst case of "getting used to moly" I know of. Usually it takes 5-30 rounds to get enough moly into a worn barrel. A new one is much easier, just shoot moly bullets during the break-in.

Some people are afraid that tumbling their bullets will work harden the jackets. We ran some Berger bullets for 5 hours in our rotary tumbler and checked hardness - exactly the same or 137 Vickers / 1kg.

A test was also done to see if time changed neck tension but we were unable to see any change at all.

One important thing Kevin is pointing out in his article is that moly and wax should not be in the chamber. Too many shooters don't clean their chambers. I'm not talking about you bench rest guys now.

We are using OKS fine moly, 0.6 - 0.8 micron. Well, that's about all we have done with moly. The commercial product has been very successful for us and we can't see any reason not to continue.

Good shooting
Norma Precision AB
Christer Larsson, R&D

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02#

Cleaning Frequency
There is far less bullet jacket fouling in the bore with moly coated bullets. Specifically, I have found there to be both less fouling in terms of the amount of deposits left behind after shooting, and a much slower accumulation of fouling. Norma AG found there to be a reduction in metal fouling of 30-40 percent. Now, the amount of fouling any one barrel exhibits has a lot to do with the barrel itself, but I think that this estimate is reliable, if not conservative. I normally shoot between two and three times as many rounds through my barrels before cleaning, depending on the caliber.

The effect here is obvious: I can get many more accurate shots between cleanings with moly coated bullets. In the past, I had to clean after each day of shooting at a major event, such as Camp Perry. Now I can shoot the entire four days there without cleaning.

This is not only a convenience but greatly enhances the consistency of my sight zeros. No matter what steps are taken in cleaning, the first two (or more) rounds through a clean barrel are always a little outside the group (moly coated or not) -- not anymore! This is the sort of advantage that can make the difference between losing and winning.

Other Benefits
There are other benefits to using moly coated bullets. Since there is a coating between the bullet and case neck, moly coated bullets will not suffer from the "sticktion" many have reported with uncoated bullets. This dangerous circumstance results from simple corrosion between the bullet and case neck, and the result is elevated pressures.

Likewise, coated bullets won't tarnish or corrode after handling. And there are others, but -- the reason to use moly coated bullets is because they provide better performance! Shooting them because they add to barrel life or so you don't have to clean the barrel as often are, again, side benefits.

David Tubb
===========================

03#

I use moly bullets in everything I shoot, however, what I shoot is typically relatively long bullets for their caliber, like a 190 in .30 cal. or 105/115 in 6mm.

That is an important point, because I think moly got a bad name because it was oversold as a cure-all when it really is just a lubricant. Cleaning methods and frequenct don't change with moly and barrel life is largely unaffected as far as I can tell. However, because in Highpower we shoot about 70 shots in a prone match and there is no opportunity to clean the rifle, fouling, especially jacket fouling, can be a concern. When you get to the last string of 20 shots and the barrel is fouled, your chances of shooting the winning score are slim. As a perfect example, in yesterday's match the winner shot a 600-34X, second place was 598-44X and third (me) was 598-41X. I was trying to overcome the second place finisher who shot on the relay ahead of me so I knew his aggregate and I also knew I would have to fire a 200-17X on the last string to beat him. He had fired a 200-18X on his last one, I was at 398-28X before shooting my last. I shot a 200-13X so I didn't get past him, but it wasn't any fault of the rifle or load, I just didn't get the wind perfectly as I would have had to in order to move up. I bring out all this just to indicate the importance in Highpower of being able to have peak accuracy all the way through the day.

Now, back to long bullets, they obviously will tend to jacket foul more than short bullets as their bearing surface is longer, and the fast twist barrels they require probably makes it worse, but since they are inseparable, who knows...

Moly reduces the severity jacket fouling - it won't eliminate it. But, it reduces it enough that I find accuracy unimpaired through the day, something that isn't the case with bare bullets. I compile the scores for all of our matches as the club statistician and so I get a nice look at everyone's progression on a given day. As it turns out, I also know who shoots moly and who doesn't among the top shooters. It's usually fairly clear, by watching the X count, that the bare bullet shooters suffer a small decline in accuracy at the end of the day - I don't. That 200-18X that I mentioned earlier, was by a moly shooter, by the way.

In Benchrest shooting, with short bearing surface bullets, slow twists and frequent cleaning, I don't know if the benefit would exist at all. Having never competed in a Benchrest match, I really can't say. However, I speak to Lester Bruno several times a week and we discuss all these topics and he is no fan of moly although he tends to repeat the old wives tales about barrel corrosion, etc. more than any real testing of his own. I borescope my barrels after each shooting session and cleaning, I can tell you there is nothing in there but bare steel. I clean with Shooters Choice, Kroil and IOSSO paste, no brushes, and the barrels clean up just fine. The only thing I do a bit differently is that I'm in no hurry, I let them soak for days, just running a fresh wet patch through every few hours or morning and evening if I'm at work.

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С уважением, ded68

Я исползовал не Molly a LUBALOX .Ето абсолутно другое покритие!Патент от НОСЛЕР. его чистит проше чем мед.

Манлихер
его чистит проше чем мед.

В .223 молью кто-нибудь пользуется?

Да...Да...да.да...дадададАда 😊
Вы - что нечитаете - "ЧИСТКУ"??? 😊 😊 😊
, очень просто - нужно научится - правильно "ЧУХАТЬ" и не фрикции больше 😀 😀 😀